Get the edge. World
Cup ski preparation.
by Gary Dranow
Modern Ski Racing Team
Today the World Cup Ski Serviceman has to deal with tough
travel conditions, poor accommodations and their athlete getting up to 60 pair
of ski per event. The work load is
daunting, the travel is exhausting and the pay is pretty modest. The by product is that some of these young
men become enterprising and bring all their experience and expertise back to
the states and open their own ski service shops.
This is a story of one such young man and his views on his
industry, his clients and why he felt the time was right to open his own
The great news for us racers who are not factory sponsored is
that we too can get the same care for our equipment that the world cup racers
get and expect. The difference is that
our world cup serviceman is not stressed, and is not working under horrible
conditions so we get the love, the best ski preparation available and at prices
that are unbeatable as these are small operations; a boutique racing
service. The trick is to find them,
these guys who left the big show to provide that service for us hack racers.
Here is the interview with Jeffrey Butz, the owner of Podium
Ski Service, the best tuning shop available in Park City and possibly anywhere
in the continental US.
Gary: Jeff, how did you get into the ski service trade?
Jeff: I started tuning skis in a ski shop in New Jersey
owned by my uncle at the age of 16, and from there I just worked in ski shops
in college in New Hampshire and Massachusetts, moved to Park City in 1995, and
worked in various shops, including Precision Ski, and Rennstall before going to
work for the US Ski Team in 2002. I
worked with Graham Lonetto, who was pretty influential in [my] learning how to
G: Who really taught you how to tune skis?
J: Probably earliest was a guy named Graham Lonetto at
Rennstall, in Park City. He has worked
for the USST and came back to work in town, and he was my boss. He taught me about the more technical
aspects of ski tuning, grinding, race waxes, things like that.
G: The first influence was Graham Lonetto. He taught you how to get a ski ready?
J: Yeah. From a race
aspect – a more detailed oriented race
G: Once you left Rennstall what did you do?
J: I moved on to a job with the USST, the women’s World Cup
downhill team. There I worked with Jeff
Wagner and Ales Soptnik who took me under their wing and taught me a lot. When you are on a circuit, everything is
more critical, so you need people to show you the ropes and learn as you go. It’s a constantly evolving process, learning
the skis, new waxes, new techniques, and trying to get the most of the
G: Is tuning speed skis radically different than tuning
J: With speed skis, base preparation is more critical. With tech skis, edge preparation is more
critical. You’re trying to get the most
speed and glide out of a pair of DH or SG skis, so that’s your main focus.
G: So you traveled on the World Cup, did you travel on
J: I traveled on
Europe Cup and Nor Am circuit with other athletes. It’s a constantly changing situation, depending on where the
races are, who is skiing well, whether someone gets injured, and who is going
to different races. Generally, you work
many different circuits.
G: How does the USST determine who you get to work with?
J: The USST will assign technicians to anywhere from 1 to 6
or 7 different athletes. The higher the
level of competition, the fewer athletes you’ll have. You’ll be more focused on particular athletes. Depending on whether people get injured or
are skiing well, or are not skiing well, the athletes may move up or down, and
the techs may follow them, or may stay put and either gain an athlete or lose
G: So, Bode Miller. How many racers does his tech have?
J: Well, Bode’s unique. He has two technicians for one racer. But he’s kind of at the top of his game.
G: How high up the ladder did you get?
J: I did WC service for the women’s downhill team. I had anywhere between 2-3 athletes for that
G: Who were your favorite racers?
J: *smiles. Everybody has their good points and bad
points. Depending on the season - on
how well it’s going for them - will determine how easy or challenging it may be
to work with them. I had fun with a lot
of the athletes. Katie Monihan is
great. Younger girls like Resi
Stiegler, Caitlin Ciccone keep it interesting.
I did some service for Resi for at the World Championships
G: How’d she do?
J: She was 10th in the combined.
G: How much support do racers get from the manufacturers? How much support do the lower levels get,
and how much do the higher levels get?
J: At the USST level, all the athletes are pretty well taken
care of by the companies – it’s in their best interest to provide the best
equipment for athletes skiing on the World Cup, Europa Cup, and Nor Am
circuits. The technician needs to keep
a good relationship with the companies, to make sure that you are getting the
most current skis and plates and bindings and trying to figure out what’s going
to work for each particular athlete.
G: During the season, are racers pretty much picking a
version of ski that they like, or are they constantly trying new skis?
J: It partially depends on the level of racer. Generally, new skis are always coming out
and it’s up to you and the athlete to decided ‘we need something better’ or
‘this is working great, let’s go with it’. Trying something new isn’t necessarily a benefit, because you could be
trying something that doesn’t work. So,
you need to talk to other technicians, and the company, and figure out what’s
different with the new skis, and see if it is something that is going to work
for you. Not always is the newest thing
the best especially if it takes you time to figure it out; last weekend in
Solden [at the beginning of the season], some of the women who finished well on
old equipment on Rossi, and a lot of the girls that had the newer stuff might
have had more trouble because they hadn’t figured it out yet. So the newest
stuff isn’t always the best, depending on the athlete, and sometimes if they
are building skis for a particular athlete – which is generally their
top-ranked athlete – that may not suit all their athletes. So you have to figure out what works and
why, and set it up for each individual person.
G: How much does ski preparation have to do with
winning? Let’s talk about speed events
J: In general, from the ski service point of view, is you
are trying to do is create confidence in the equipment for the athlete, so they
know that they can go out and do 100% and do well, and not have to worry about
skis being too sharp, not sharp enough, everything is right, and they can go do
what they are there to do. Also, the
same thing applies to training. Constant maintenance, and keeping the skis consistent lets them train
and develop skiing, versus having random equipment condition over a period of
time, where that’s affecting their ability to work on technique. That’s the basics, but as far as speed goes,
you can’t underestimate what good, fast skis will do, and that’s kind of the
goal. To first of all find good skis
out of the 10 or 20 or more pair of skis that you may start the season with,
and take those skis, and work them to the point where they are consistently
fast, figure out what conditions they run well in, and at a particular event
select the proper ski for the conditions.
G: Do servicemen get a lot of feedback from the athlete?
J: The best information for a service guy is split timing,
and ski testing. Those things are
really based in reality. That’s what
you are looking at the most, whether you are testing waxes or testing
skis. That kind of glide testing is the
best where the skis are just running in a straight line and timed for acceleration,
top speed, and overall time. You take
all the information and look at it over a period of time, and figure out which
skis work well in certain conditions. That’s critical to choosing the correct ski for an event.
G: So at the WC level, how many pairs of skis does a racer
get to start to the season?
J: That’s dependent on their ranking with a particular
company. At the top end, you have an
unlimited amount of skis that you could start with. You would maybe start with 20 pair of DH skis, and begin
selecting and testing the skis, and pulling out ones that seem to have better
performance. During the season, you
have the ability to travel with 6 pair of DH skis, between flying and
traveling, so you need to narrow down the quiver to the point where you can
select a ski from 6 or 8 really good skis. You can’t be choosing from 20 or 30 skis; you’d go crazy.
G: How about with GS?
J: With GS, because the gliding is not as critical, the big
thing with GS skis is that they stay sharp, and don’t get bent or delaminate. The tech skis go through a pretty tough life,
bashing gates, and a lot of training. So, that’s something too, with the tech skis, you could start over
mid-season; you don’t want to lose a good pair of skis, but getting a new pair
of slalom skis in the middle of the season isn’t critical, because you don’t
have all the work in them that you do in a pair of speed skis. Speed skis you guard with your life.
G: That’s why master’s racers don’t lend each other speed
G: What are the typical bevels that you set for speed
skis? Let’s talk about for a master’s
J: For speed skis, I would run 1 degree base bevel and 3
degree side edge bevel. GS, or slalom
skis, I’d run half degree base bevel and 3 degree on the side.
G: How long does a bevel hold throughout the season? Once you set a bevel for a racer, when do
you expect to see them back in again?
J: As far as once a ski is set up properly, the sharpening
of the ski takes place from the side bevel, so hopefully you are always maintaining
that. The base bevel will only change
as the base edge wears from skiing on hard snow, or from using diamond stones.
If the base bevel is increased over time, the only way to really flatten it out
again is to regrind it again on the stone grinder.
G: Since you’ve brought up the stone grinder, let’s take a
look at that. Tell us about your setup.
J: The stone grinder I have is a Winterstieger Sigma RS 200,
this is their race room grinder. It can
do any number of structures. It is just
a good machine.
G: Tell me about the stones that set the structure.
J:The stones come in varying degrees of hardness. The softer stones will take the structure
better, but it’s more sensitive to how you run the skis, so you have to be a
little more careful. For the type of
work that we do here, we run a pretty soft stone, and that gives us the best
structures. The stone is dressed
periodically, which will create different structures, and that is done with a
diamond tool in the machine that puts the structure in the stone; it grinds it
into the surface, and that grinding surface is transferred into the ski.
G: When did you open Podium Ski Service?
J: I just opened this past September here in Park City, to
serve the local race and performance ski enthusiasts in the PC and SLC
G: Will you take people from out of town? Are you set up to have skis shipped to you?
J: Sure, I’ve already been doing some stuff through the
mail. Anyway the skis get here, I’ll
get them done right, and get them back to you?
G: How long does it take to get a pair of skis back out the
J: That varies from day to day, but generally it is 2-3 days
out, work wise. It just depends on how
backed up I am.
G: Why did you decide to open you own shop?
J: I just wanted to work in an environment where I knew I
was in control of all the work being done. I’ve got one part-time employee, so I’m pretty hands-on with everything
that comes in the shop, so I can provide a consistently top-level service.
G: Who are your clients? Do you have any USST people that come through here?
J: Because the USST is based in Park City, I’m still
acquainted with a lot of the current technicians, and if they need a grind or
something, I can help them out. Basically, the bulk of my clientele comes from junior program kids, like
the Park City Ski Team, and I have some kids from Jackson Hole, and from other
areas, that will send skis down here.
G: Walk us through what you do with a new pair of
skis. Let’s say that you’ve got a new
pair of skis that has not been touched. What is the first thing you do?
J: The first thing I do is given them an overall inspection;
I check the factory bevels, if there are any, and look at the grind and see how
well it was ground from the factory. Basically, I size up the work and see what needs the most attention.
G: Factory bevels. What manufactures come with bevels?
J: It really depends, because certain companies that offer
race stock product may not have bevels on their skis. Rossi’s come with some bevel, even on their race skis. Skis like Elan and Volkl come with no
bevels, and you really have to have them tuned. Even the skis that come with bevels, it really all can be
improved on, because those are machine finishes, so there can be some pretty
significant inconsistencies. Particularly in the base bevel.
The first thing I do is prepare the sidewall, shape the
skis, and set the side bevel before I go to the stone grinder. This allows me to be a little less critical
of filings and stuff that I don’t want to work into the base.
G: Let’s talk about sidewalls for a second. You’ve got a pair of Atomic skis on the
bench. This is not a flat sidewall
ski. I would assume you take a
different approach than for a ski that has a flat sidewall.
J: Really, every ski poses unique challenges, as far as the
sidewall goes, a ski with the Atomic construction, which is basically a
laminate ski with a cap finisher, there is a little less work, but you have to
bevel back the sidewall just above the edge – the shoulder. You don’t want anything interfering with
your ability to get a good clean 3 degree side edge.
G: This ski (the Atomic race ski) has a cap finish. Do Volkl and Rossi have straight sidewalls?
J: Atomics are unique in that they are a sandwich
construction, but instead of the sidewall construction, the put a cap on it.
G: You’ve got a pair of my wife’s speed skis, so that fact
that I’ve dinged them on the ceiling is okay. You’ve got a flat sidewall here. Tell us what you’ve done to the top of the ski.
J: Yeah, on a typical sandwich construction ski, the top
sheet is fairly squared off at 90 degrees, especially at the tips and tails,
where they don’t bevel back at all when they are building the skis. In order to get the 3 degrees side edge
bevel all the way through the tip and tail, you need to remove some material
from the top sheet. In addition to
that, you need to round the top sheet.
G: What we are talking about first is that you are taking
the sidewall and beveling back at an angle from the edge, correct?
J: Just above the edge – the area that is typically called
the bumper of the sidewall – is beveled back at a pretty significant angle –
maybe 30 degrees (when it is new, it might be at 2 degrees). This gives you the
ability to file the edge a little easier. What you don’t want to do on a sidewall job is to remove the sidewall
where the edge is just sticking out on it’s own. It needs to be supported by the sidewall, but by tapering it
back, you get the support of the sidewall but it doesn’t interfere with the
G: What tools do you use to bring this back 30 degrees?
J: Overall, I’ll use maybe 3 different sidewall
planers. I’ll use one just above the
edge to create the bevel – I use a SVST – the WC sidewall plane. For more the midsection of the sidewall, if
I get a groove, I’ll transition that into the rest of the sidewall with a Toko
sidewall planer. That will give me a
good transition between the bevel back and the main part of the sidewall.
G: So the lower part (near the edge) is the most critical
J: Yeah. That does
the most work for filing the skis.
G: How do you round the cap?
J: In addition to the sidewall plane, for the tips and tails
which are more squared up, I like to transition and blend those in, to the
angle that I put on the sidewall. For
that I’ll either use a body file (a Panzer) or a steel bar that is used for
pull back top sheets pretty effectively.
G: This looks like an aggressive tool.
J: For any of these tools where you are cutting a
significant amount of material, the tools are sharp, and there’s always the
potential to cut yourself.
G: This is Gary’s commentary – if you are going to get into
sidewall shaping, it’s best left to the professionals!
J: The theory behind shaping the sidewall, in addition to
making the skis easier to maintain, is that the tips and tails have a better
ability to engage, if the sidewall is beveled back, somewhat. Rounding the top sheet also makes the skis a
little less susceptible to getting dinged up. That rounded edge withstands banging gates better.
G: So with a slalom ski, it’s a really good idea to round
the top sheet?
J: Exactly. There
are a lot of advantages to doing it. Slalom skis are a great example because as that gate crashes down on top
of the skis, if it hits a sharp unfinished edge, it’s more likely to
delaminate, than if it is rounded over. It distributes the force a little bit better, and gives you a little bit
more margin of error.
G: Do you do the sidewall and the side edge bevel at the
J: Yes. Then I know
that I’m at the point that I can file the skis easily. I do this before I hit the stone grinder;
there are a lot of filings that comes from the sidewall and the side edge. You want to be very careful when side
filing, to keep the base free of any filings, as that will damage the base.
G: Step two?
J: Once the bevels are set on the side and the sidewall,
I’ll go to the stone grinder. The stone
grinding is flattening the ski so that I can put on the base bevel. For tech skis, I put on a half degree base
bevel, which isn’t much, so I have to make the ski totally flat, first so I can
file a half degree. If the ski comes
with 1 degree of base bevel, the only way to get a half degree is to grind it
When I get to the final structuring of the ski, I’ll make
sure that the ski has a tiny bit of base bevel, so I can get a good consistent
structure edge to edge.
G: So you are making sure that the edges are not touching
J: Yeah, the idea is to keep the structure on the stone in
good condition but just running base material on it, and not touching the edges
to the stone.
Stone grinding provides a flat surface for beveling the
base, and also gives you the chance to structure the base with a finish that
will allow the ski to glide better that it would with a smooth finish. Stone structures run from fine to coarse –
all different types.
G: What do the different structures do? My speed ski came in
with a structure I’ve never seen before.
J: The typical Rossi speed ski comes in with a grind called
‘ML2’ it is a basic cross-hatch grind. The grinds are really more critical for gliding and for speed skis. For slalom and GS, it’s critical to get the
skis flat. The speed skis, generally
will have, different grinds, for different conditions. The tech skis will generally have the same
grind. You just want to make sure it is
a good grind for all around conditions.
G: An ‘all-temperature’ grind?
J: Yeah. You’ll gear
it to general conditions. If you live
in the West, you’ll have different conditions, and grinds than if you were in
the East. But in general in tech skis the gliding properties aren’t
as important. Of course, it depends on
the course. For some Master’s GS
courses there might be flatter sections where gliding is important.
Once the skis are stone ground, you do the base bevel – ½
degree for tech skis, 1 degree for speed skis – once the bevels are set, you
want to work on the edge finish with diamond stones and ceramic stones.
G: Let’s look at the tools that you’ve got.
*shows a side edge guide*
J: I use a screw clamp, rather than a spring clamp, because
it creates a better clamping force.
*that’s a carbide file*
G: Of course, you’ll use different tools to finish the edge.
J: Sure. A progression of diamond stones and ceramic stones
will really hone that edge. You want
the ski to be sharp, but without a burr.
G: For the bottom, you are using a file guide like *this*
J: This is a SVST base bevel guide. It is really accurate – it has been machined,
so it is more accurate than some of the plastic base bevels. On a flat ski, this basically holds the file
up just enough of an angle (in this a case a ½ degree) and I file to the point
where the file just gets down to the level of the base. It might only take 2 –3 passes to get a
half-degree, depending on the hardness of the edge. ½ degree is a small amount of bevel. I’ll check this using a
true-bar, and see how much daylight I can see under the bar. With a base bevel, a little bit is a
lot. The difference between a
half-degree and a full degree on a pair of slalom skis is a lot. Making sure you have a consistent base bevel
tip to tail is important. Once you get
the base bevel, and you like the way it skis, you want to resist filing it
further because it can change the dynamics of the ski. Once the base is set, you’ll use diamond
stones and ceramic stones for maintenance.
Once the base bevel is set, I’ll use the progression of
diamond stones and ceramic stones to polish the edge. With the bevels you’ve got, you can leave the skis super sharp,
or moderate the sharpness with a gummi stone. For certain conditions, or certain athletes, you don’t need the skis as
sharp. For hard ice, you need a good
honed edge. When the snow is softer,
particularly in speed events, you need to detune the skis and take a little of
the bite off so they are easier to control.
G: The next step is waxing?
J: Yes. Once I’ve
finished the base prep, I’ll brush and scrape the ski to take out any
impurities – filings or whatever – a good sharp scraper and a good bronze or
steel brush and then they are ready to get waxed.
G: When you get a new pair of skis, what’s the wax you use?
J: On a ski prep, I’ll hot scrape the ski with a hot wax –
yellow – it’s a good wax for penetrating the ski at a low temperature, and just
take out any of the grinding emulsion in the base. Once I’ve done that, I’ll typically go to a more mid-range
temperature wax, and start getting the wax in the base.
G: Do you use hot bags?
J: Definitely for speed skis, I’ll use a thermo-bag to help
the wax bond to the base. I use the same idea, starting with the softer waxes,
and then go up through the harder waxes.
G: Do you put multiple coats of wax on before you have the
athlete get on them?
J: The more wax you can get in the base, before you get out
on the snow, the better. It’s a good
idea to wax a ski 5-6 times before the skis hit the snow. It is just a better way to protect the base,
and it means the skis are going to slide well from day one.
G: So, my 9 pairs of skis – I’ve got to wax them 4-5 more
times before I ski them?
J: *laughs. It’s not
a bad idea. I’ve got to sell you some
G: While we are talking about that, is there any difference
between Toko, Swix, and Holmenkol?
J: The products are all very good, but you’ve got to
understand the different systems. Each
company has a different methodology of mixing the waxes, and choosing the
waxes. The most important thing is
understanding the system that you are using, so that you can make the most
educated decision for race day.
G: Would you recommend sticking with one system, once you’ve
J: If you understand everything, and have a good background, occasionally there is a
chance for using a different wax, but for learning, it’s best to stick with one
system and learn the wax chart, and what works well in what conditions. That way, you’ve got confidence in choosing
the wax for race day.
G: Can your customers call you for advice on waxing?
J: I always get questions for race waxing. Everybody wants to know that magic
G: So it’s not uncommon for you to get a phone call “what am
I using today”?
J: It’s hard to do over the phone, because there are so many
variables. It’s best to think of the
most important section of the course, where the gliding is most critical, and
what the snow is going to be like there – temperatures, and humidity.
G: Since you don’t travel with me *laughs – how do I know
how to wax for a particular day?
J: The big thing, for training, is protecting your
skis. Day to day waxing, you aren’t so
much concerned with nailing the wax – you are basically waxing with training
waxes or hydrocarbon waxes, which are non-fluorinated waxes. It’s good to take some snow temperatures
occasionally, so you know where you are at, so you’ve got a feel for what
certain conditions are like. If you’ve
never done that before it’s hard to judge for race day. It’s a good practice.
Anytime you are waxing, you want to identify the part of the
course where you could gain or lose the most time.
G: For example, on CBs, it would be the bottom flats?
J: Right. On CB’s
you aren’t worrying about much of anything on the top section – you are just
trying to make all the turns. But once
you hit the bottom flats, you are in more of a glide and tuck-turn situation,
and that’s where you are going to look at the snow, and the temperatures that
you are getting, how sunny it’s going to be – all those little things that
affect the choice of wax.
G: If you can’t take snow temps, but can guess, based on the
ambient temperature, can you adjust last-minute using overlays?
J: Overlays are a good way to adjust if you think you made a
big mistake with the base wax. The
overlays are interesting – there are a lot of products out there that are all
very good, but generally only in very specific conditions. It’s just something that a lot of
technicians will use them, but there are times that they won’t because they are
worried about making the wrong choice, and slowing the skis down. That is something that takes a lot of
experience, and trial and error with before you can really understand the
overlays. But if you have a good base
wax, and you brush well, and the skis have always been well-cared for, that
makes a lot more difference than what you can do at the start with a powder and
a cork. The day-to-day maintenance, and
how well you take care of your skis will contribute more to the overall speed
of the skis than what you do the day, or the day before a race.
G: Okay, so let’s talk about brushing.
J: Brushing cleans the remaining wax out of the structure,
which lets the moisture that builds up under the ski as it’s sliding move, and
allows the ski to glide faster. If you
don’t brush the skis well, they won’t slide as well. What brushing will also do is that it will continuously polishes
the top surface of the base and the grind, making that surface smoother and
smoother, maker them slicker and slicker over time. Brushing is important – you can brush before you wax, after you
wax – it’s really a key to building speed in the skis.
G: How many brushes do you use?
J: I keep it simple. I like using a steel brush, and a copper or bronze brush, and a
horse-hair brush. Those are my three
major brushes. My copper/bronze brush is
my ‘go-to’ brush all the time. It’s
good for cleaning the base before you wax, and it does a good job of cleaning
the wax out after you wax. That’s my
main brush. The steel brushes are great
for opening the base before you wax, and just have to be used a little more
cautiously because they are more abrasive than the bronze brushes.
G: What about iron temperatures?
J: The biggest thing with the iron temperature is keeping
the iron moving. Unfortunately, the
thermostats on the irons are not always as accurate as you’d hope. So if you
have a new iron, start low and see how the wax melts.
G: How about judging
the temperature by whether the iron is smoking or not?
J: Generally, if the iron is smoking it is too hot. A hotter iron, if you move it quick enough,
it is okay. The iron should never stop
on the base. I figure my iron
temperature is based on a mid-range wax, the guidelines given by the
manufactures are a good starting point, but again, the thermostat on the iron
might not be accurate, so you’ll want to keep an eye on that. That’s a little tricky. It’s better to start low and gradually
increase the temperature of the iron until you find what works.
G: What’s your
impression of Rossignol race stock skis?
J: Rossignol has
been doing a great job of really providing race stock skis to junior level
kids, especially the speed skis – it is the real deal. They are getting kids competing on the
Nor-Ams who know that they aren’t being held back by their equipment. That’s a huge benefit to the athletes.
G: Let’s get more
specific. Rossignol introduced the
Rossignol Race Center, and put out skis through the race centers. Rossignol mass-produces a real race stock
ski. Do all manufactures do this?
J: The simple answer is no. Not everybody wants to deal with providing race stock skis to the
general public. Rossignol is doing a
great job of getting that equipment out, and making it available. The race center program gives you the
opportunity to get good skis, without having to know the right person.
G: How do you view your service compared to what racers can
get at their local ski shops?
J: My goal here is
to provide the top level of service, and treat everyone as if they were skiing
on the world cup.
G: How many shops out there have WC service technicians
working for them?
J: Nationwide, as far as people actually doing the work,
there are only 3-4 shops where the technicians have that experience and don’t
rely on extra employees to manage the workload. My goal is to be hands on with all the work, and make sure that
the quality stays at the highest level.
Jeffrey has started a new service where you can purchase
your skis from Rossignol or other manufacturers and have your skis drop shipped
right to him for original setup including bevels, structure and thermal
bagging. Jeff will then ship the skis
directly to you ready to go, you only need to maintain your side bevels and
waxing from there.
Modern Ski Racing highly recommends Jeff and his work as we
all use his service and can vouch for the quality of his work. If shipping your skis to a WC tech is a bit
much for you then take the information from this interview and see if you can
find your own WC tech in your local area. But under any circumstance find someone with the experience, equipment
and most importantly the time to give you the service of a World Cup Racer, its
an edge that your competition probably won’t have and may be a winning
difference fo you, I know it is for me.